The Cause of Lipomatosis

Talk about anything and everything related to lipomas and related healthcare issues here.

Moderator: matt

surfsteve
Regular
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:14 pm
Number of lipomas: 1
Contact:

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by surfsteve » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:24 pm

I couldn't disagree more. If they totally understood it then why don't they know what causes the break? They only understand what they think they do. If this were 500 years ago we could both be arguing over what causes the world to be flat and we would both be wrong.
aka surfstev
Guest

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by Guest » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:54 am

surfsteve wrote:I couldn't disagree more. If they totally understood it then why don't they know what causes the break? They only understand what they think they do. If this were 500 years ago we could both be arguing over what causes the world to be flat and we would both be wrong.

But they do know what causes the break. I only have a couple minutes here but I'll try to explain. During cell division the genes physically rip apart. It is a normal part of cell growth. Think about ripping a piece of paper on a perforation. usually the tear will follow the perforation as expected, but if there is a weak spot then the rip doesn't exactly follow the perforation. There is a physical weak spot near the gene that controls fat cell division.

There was never any scientific measurable evidence that the earth was flat.
surfsteve
Regular
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:14 pm
Number of lipomas: 1
Contact:

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by surfsteve » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:41 pm

OK. I understand all that but what causes the genes with the chromosome abnormality to rip apart? Why doesn't it happen equally to all people that have it? Why doesn't it happen to every cell in their body? Random mutation might as well be called dark matter. I don't think modern medicine has a clue. But it sounds fancy, promising and expensive.

Actually it was the increase in our ability to measure and comprehend that led to the discovery of a spherical world. All the scientific evidence that was considered at that time by anyone of importance indicated that the world was flat. Even with all our fancy gadgets we still don't understand why it is here or what we are doing on it any better than we did before.
aka surfstev
Guest

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by Guest » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:12 am

surfsteve wrote:OK. I understand all that but what causes the genes with the chromosome abnormality to rip apart? Why doesn't it happen equally to all people that have it? Why doesn't it happen to every cell in their body? Random mutation might as well be called dark matter. I don't think modern medicine has a clue. But it sounds fancy, promising and expensive.

Actually it was the increase in our ability to measure and comprehend that led to the discovery of a spherical world. All the scientific evidence that was considered at that time by anyone of importance indicated that the world was flat. Even with all our fancy gadgets we still don't understand why it is here or what we are doing on it any better than we did before.

Hi.

Chromosomes separate in every cell that naturally divides. It is during that process that the mutation can occur. As I have mentioned on this board, anyone with common lipomatosis can walk into a local genetic lab and have his lipoma related genes tested. Bring a friend with you that does not have lipomatosis, have him tested as well, and they will find there is nothing wrong with that gene. In other words, the genetic cause of common lipomatosis is not a "theory"--it has been proven. There was never this type of hard scientific evidence that the earth was flat.

Caveat: The word "lipoma" is sometimes used for very rare disorders that are unrelated to common lipomatosis. In those rare disorders, the genetic link may not exist--those other rare disorders have other causes.
User avatar
matt
Lipoma Guru
Posts: 1168
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:01 am
Number of lipomas: 61-100
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by matt » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:00 am

Guest, you are continuously spreading misinformation, please stop it.

So far no one has been successful in proving that a single DNA mutation is the cause of the lipomatosis. It is true that many times a mutation (or actually mutations) is discovered in a lipoma but too many times it isn't. Infact there are a couple of studies which indicate that in familial multiple lipomatosis there isn't any mutation involved.

We have also spoken about the DNA testing, it is not as easy as you tell. They do not have sophisticated ways of testing a certain translocation I'm afraid. Most labs are not willing to do the testing and if they are the price will rise. I do dream to have one day few thousands extra so I can prove you wrong.
Hi I'm Matt - the creator and owner of this site. I have dozens of small nasty lipomas all over. I've tried many treatments including surgery and Lipostabil injections. See my lipoma prevention supplement recommendations and please consider donating a small amount via PayPal (click the Donate button) to keep this site up and running. Thx!
Guest

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by Guest » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:46 pm

Matt: On your first point, there are many different views posted on this board and I will let readers determine whether they feel my views have any merit versus other views posted.

Regarding genetic labs, here is my suggestion. Someone reading this board must be willing to spend a couple hundred dollars on a genetic test. (It is not thousands--it is more like the cost of a few bottles of Pomaway.) Then they could get the test and report the results on this board. This person should be someone how suffers from common lipomatosis, not MSL, Dercums, solitary lipoma, etc. As you have correctly pointed out, there are studies that show no such genetic link in some rare cases and in these other rare disorders.

So here is what someone reading this board should do. Contact a local lab like one of the following in your own local area:


http://www.reproductivegenetics.com/translocations.html

http://www.ggc.org/

Then, ask the lab how much they would charge to look for any variation in chromosomal region 12q13-15. They should also be sure to check HMGIC (in that region) for any variation. HMGIC/LPP would be one example. It might be a translocation such as t(3;12)(q27-28;q14-15), but not necessarily--they are looking for any abnormality in 12q13-15.

If there is someone interested in doing this but does not live in a U.S. city and doesn't feel that such a lab exists near them, then they should post that to this board. I will try to find for them either a lab near them, or another lab that accepts mail in cheek swabs. This is what is great about science--there is no need to speculate nor debate abstract concepts. Let's just get the facts.
surfsteve
Regular
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:14 pm
Number of lipomas: 1
Contact:

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by surfsteve » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:25 pm

I think the guest is confusing a genetic cause with genetic commonality.
aka surfstev
User avatar
matt
Lipoma Guru
Posts: 1168
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:01 am
Number of lipomas: 61-100
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by matt » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:01 pm

Guest, like I said, if I someday have the money to do it I will! I know such a test if even performed by the lab will cost some thousands of dollars.

Also, the studies about familial multiple lipomatosis are not some rare cases as you pointed out. They are the ONLY ones in which familial lipomatosis has ever been studied on a chromosomal level and in those they found no mutations.

It would be quite a chance that they managed to find the rare cases in which no abnormality was discovered in familial multiple lipomatosis.
Hi I'm Matt - the creator and owner of this site. I have dozens of small nasty lipomas all over. I've tried many treatments including surgery and Lipostabil injections. See my lipoma prevention supplement recommendations and please consider donating a small amount via PayPal (click the Donate button) to keep this site up and running. Thx!
guest

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by guest » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:23 am

surfsteve wrote:I think the guest is confusing a genetic cause with genetic commonality.

No, they know it is a cause rather than a just correlation. Generally, they map the genes to their functions by altering the gene in a test animal and observing the impact in the animal. For example, if they modify the HMGIC gene in mice it affects fat tissue growth. So this is not just a coincidence that humans with translocations in this same region happen to have fat-tissue related disorders.

They sometimes also completely delete a gene from a mouse and see what happens. This modern medicine is not unique to the study of lipomatosis--many diseases have been traced to their underlying specific genetic abnormalities. When the CFTR gene is somehow abnormal, the patient is at very high risk of cystic fibrosis. Problems with the dystrophin gene lead to muscular dystrophy.

Now you may ask: "What if it is just a coincidence that most people with muscular dystrophy happen to have abnormal CFTR genes?" Well, we know that genes code proteins that perform a specific function. If the steering pump on your car breaks and your steering then becomes difficult, you can be confident that the steering pump (rather than the exhaust pipe) caused the steering problem because you know the functions of the steering pump versus the exhaust pipe. One problem with this analogy--many cars today have electrical steering that does not require a hydraulic pump!
User avatar
matt
Lipoma Guru
Posts: 1168
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:01 am
Number of lipomas: 61-100
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by matt » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:05 pm

You and your steering pumps, LOL :D

A couple of quotes:
Solitary lipomas commonly have rearrangements of chromosome 12, a finding not encountered in multiple lipomas or in spindle cell/ pleomorphic lipoma.
Source from 1996
Familial multiple lipomatosis (FML) is a rare entity. We report a family with this disease. Karyotypic analysis was performed on tissue isolated from excised lipomas and peripheral blood. No chromosomal abnormalities were found. This is the first report of karyotypic analysis of lipomas removed from a patient with FML.
Source from 2007
Hi I'm Matt - the creator and owner of this site. I have dozens of small nasty lipomas all over. I've tried many treatments including surgery and Lipostabil injections. See my lipoma prevention supplement recommendations and please consider donating a small amount via PayPal (click the Donate button) to keep this site up and running. Thx!
Curious

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by Curious » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:23 am

Sorry in advance if what I'm about to write doesn't make sense to those of you with advanced knowledge of biology... but if it does, I sure would appreciate an answer.

Does anyone know whether lipoma cells exhibit an overexpression of cyclin e? I presume that this type of thing would have been tested for, right? And if there were an overexpression of cyclin, could cyclin antibodies perhaps be useful to us?

Lastly, and this may sound really idiotic, would RNA and/or DNA supplementation possible help? I mean, if my DNA isn't functioning properly, could I not try to take in as much DNA as possible through external means as opposed to through my own development mechanism? I'm likely wayyyyy off with these questions, but I don't have much formal education in biology.

Thanks and keep up the good discussion!
User avatar
sjohn
Super Member
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Greece
Contact:

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by sjohn » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:51 pm

guest wrote:No, they know it is a cause rather than a just correlation.
Can you refer to us the relative studies?

EDIT: Also who are "they"?
Last edited by sjohn on Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Guest

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by Guest » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:58 pm

Sjohn: I have previously posted various references on this board. But I think the problem is that it is hard for someone with no background to understand.

Another approach that has been tried is looking at research papers on line. Those can be found by googling, for example, Lipoma HMGIC. For some people that helps their understanding. But the problem with that approach is that research papers are not intended to give the full picture. In fact, sometimes researchers will publish results because their work found something unusual, counter to the norm. So someone pulling such an article read about the unusual result and think that is the general body of knowledge.

Then I suggested that people ask their doctors. In the U.S., there are established protocols and clinical practice guidelines that also define the accepted causes. The big advances in understanding of the cause of lipomatosis occurred about twenty years ago, so a doctor would not have to be up to the minute cutting edge to know this, and common lipomatosis is sufficiently prevalent that they would encounter it in their practices. But I have learned from this board that several people on this board apparently do not have access to well informed doctors.

So right now I feel sad that there is no easy way to educate people, and that lack of education makes them prey to scammers.
User avatar
matt
Lipoma Guru
Posts: 1168
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:01 am
Number of lipomas: 61-100
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by matt » Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:53 pm

sjohn, I can translate guest's answer to your question:

no, he can't, you just have to take his word for it.
Hi I'm Matt - the creator and owner of this site. I have dozens of small nasty lipomas all over. I've tried many treatments including surgery and Lipostabil injections. See my lipoma prevention supplement recommendations and please consider donating a small amount via PayPal (click the Donate button) to keep this site up and running. Thx!
User avatar
sjohn
Super Member
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Greece
Contact:

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by sjohn » Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:24 am

Guest wrote:Sjohn: I have previously posted various references on this board. But I think the problem is that it is hard for someone with no background to understand.

Another approach that has been tried is looking at research papers on line. Those can be found by googling, for example, Lipoma HMGIC. For some people that helps their understanding. But the problem with that approach is that research papers are not intended to give the full picture. In fact, sometimes researchers will publish results because their work found something unusual, counter to the norm. So someone pulling such an article read about the unusual result and think that is the general body of knowledge.

Then I suggested that people ask their doctors. In the U.S., there are established protocols and clinical practice guidelines that also define the accepted causes. The big advances in understanding of the cause of lipomatosis occurred about twenty years ago, so a doctor would not have to be up to the minute cutting edge to know this, and common lipomatosis is sufficiently prevalent that they would encounter it in their practices. But I have learned from this board that several people on this board apparently do not have access to well informed doctors.

So right now I feel sad that there is no easy way to educate people, and that lack of education makes them prey to scammers.
I understand that it might be unattractive and time consuming to educate people online but since you take the time to comment and answer questions on this board can you please take a look and spare a minute to comment at the following ?

1. Based on this article can you tell me which basic medical science studies FML?

2. Can you name at least one internationally recognised medical textbook (e.g. like this) that discusses (or at least shares some information concerning) FML, updated with "The big advances in understanding of the cause of lipomatosis"?

3. You seem to know which papers talk about (or investigate the causes of) lipoma tumors. Why dont you just cite the relative ones and save us the trouble of searching amongst hundreds or thousands of results?

4. As far as i know there is no explanation regarding the biochemical mechanisms that result in lipoma tumor formation. If there is, can you please state otherwise and share it with us? Mayo Clinic says that the exact cause is unknown and genetic factors likely play A ROLE. After all, who wrote that these gene mutations are the direct cause of the symptoms of FML (lipoma tumors) and not a cause of some type of deficieny or disorder (or something else - i used this term to make a point) that results in the appearance of FML tumors?

Ps: You try to discredit my question by saying that i have no backround (you seem most certain that i do not). This is just an ad-hominem remark. The fact remains that you never use references about the stuff you talk about. I cannot search your previous posts to find your references because you post (God knows why...) as a guest. After all, concerning backrounds, do you perhaps have a relative backround? You seem to be very certain about the stuff you talk about.
Guest

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by Guest » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:09 am

Sjohn: I have never intended to "discredit" your questions. If anything, your questions are more logical than many posts on this board that relate to quackery. I did intend to discredit the Pomaway guy, but I don't remember you being a Pomaway cheerleader.
My point about having a background is not an insult to anyone; I am just pointing out that these are very complex subjects and they are not easy to explain in simple terms. But I'll try........

# 1. Several of these disciplines can be involved with the study of FML. Here is an example to illustrate. When you have a tumor removed, they will take a sample and look at it closely under a microscope. This is "pathology" or "histology". But the guys who discovered HMGIC are geneticists. The researchers who find no correlation between diet and common lipomatosis are epidemiologists. So you see that each of these disciplines are involved.

# 2.

A. Collison. Lipomas.
B. The Merck Manuals: The Merck Manual for Healthcare Professionals.
C. Wolff K, et al.: Benign neoplasms and hyperplasias.

# 3. No, what I mentioned was that you could type the words "Lipoma" and "HMGIC" in a google search. (Both words included in the search.) However, I am hesitant to select and recommend a single article to recommend because it seems like these articles are confusing and misleading to people.

# 4. It might be best if you first read up on genetics in general. Then learn what a transcriptional regulating gene is in general. What happens when a transcriptional regulating gene is abnormal? Then when you read up on the genetics of lipomatosis, you will be able to connect the dots and grasp what is written about cause and effect. Here is an analogy: Since you know that the compressor in an air conditioning unit is what causes the cooling, then you would not suspect that cars stay hot on warm days just coincidentally happen to have broken air condition compressors. (O.K, that analogy might not be helpful...)

Regarding my certainty--you may know that water is comprised of hydrogen and oxygen molecules. So if you wrote "water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen", you would seem certain about it. Now you did not discover this yourself, but if you believe in experimentally tested science, this fact. Water can even be split back into these two components, helping to prove the composition. Similarly, what I am posting is also known science.

Having said that, I don't feel a need to prove myself and I recognize that I am just one guy posting on a board. Readers may choose not agree with what I post and have different views. It is better for people to ask their doctors.
User avatar
sjohn
Super Member
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Greece
Contact:

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by sjohn » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:02 pm

Ok, i appreciate the answers and refering to the textbooks. According to you, these textbook are updated with "The big advances in understanding of the cause of lipomatosis".

If i am not mistaken they are the same references that Mayo Clinic's staff uses to conclude that
"The exact cause of lipomas is unknown. Lipomas tend to run in families, so genetic factors likely play A ROLE in their development."
Please check here (readers check it out but pressing the + button left of the word "References" below the article)

But anyway, i'll try to read the relevant chapters somehow (don't know why i'll do that since the experts did that before me to conclude to what is stated above).

The analogy you use is a bit akward because it is the driver's choice to turn on or off the air-conditioning, not to mention over simplified... but anyway i guess it is acceptable.

Now concerning water being comprised of hydrogen and oxygen - well this is not, by any means, debatable science. This is a hard fact.

You speak with certainty about something that (in my opinion) has not yet reached a consensus in the scientific world, (that being genetic mutations are the direct and exact cause of lipoma tumor formation - and not just playing a role in it like genes do in in almost everything") as it appears to me by reading e.g. Mayo Clinic's staff article here, WebMD or DermNet NZ.

So using my common sense (without having a relative backround) it really is wierd to read that stuff from you... Maybe i'll try to read you posts again and try to understand your logic, that is, after i get a grip about genetics.

In any case, i agree that it is better for people to ask their doctors.
surfsteve
Regular
Posts: 35
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:14 pm
Number of lipomas: 1
Contact:

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by surfsteve » Thu Aug 16, 2012 4:28 pm

I don't have a doctor. I would most likely have to chose between having one or having electricity or a home.
aka surfstev
Guest

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by Guest » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:49 am

Consumer (ie patient) websites never go into much detail on complex issues. This is a complicated subject and so "genetics plays a role" might be as much as it would be practical to say to the average patient on a website. Also, genetics "playing a role" is not terribly inaccurate because the mutation does interact with other variables. Even the DermNZ website is only guilty of understatement, not gross inaccuracy, when they say "It is possible there may be genetic involvement". These sites are a little vague and tentative, but it is not as if they are saying that lipomas are caused by lack of apple peel in the diet, or bacteria, or any other crazy notion that is directly counter to what I have written.

On the analogy of the car airconditioner--sorry for my lack of clarity. I meant that that if, out of a thousand cars 10 have broken AC compressors, and those ten are the same that have high temperatures inside the vehicle, then anyone who knows the function of the compressor would know that this is NOT a correlation without a causation. The broken compressor is causing the temperature problem and it is not just a coincidence.

On your third to last paragraph: You may be taking the vagueness on the consumer websites to indicate that there is no agreement on the cause of common lipomatosis. Here is another analogy: You could read on some consumer websites that "running electrical current through water can sometimes cause emission of gasses." You might think: they said "sometimes" and didn't specifically mention hyrogen and oxygen, so maybe they don't really know for sure that water is composed of hydrogen and oxygen." But they are only writing in a careful and simplified style.

If a semi-informed patient asks detailed questions of his doctor, most doctors will respond with more specific answers. Or at least the good doctors-- I know some on this board have had bad experiences with their doctors.

Regards.......
Guest

Re: The Cause of Lipomatosis

Post by Guest » Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:51 am

surfsteve wrote:I don't have a doctor. I would most likely have to chose between having one or having electricity or a home.

Surfsteve: I don't mean to pry, and I would understand if you didn't want to answer this question. But.....do you live in the U.S. and have you applied for medicaid?
Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest